It's official: Apple are the moral police
Mikey 32 comments
TechCrunch has had an interesting back-and-forth with none other than Apple helmsman Steve Jobs on the topic of porn.
When questioned on Apples role, Jobs replied:
"we do believe we have a moral responsibility to keep porn off the iPhone. Folks who want porn can buy and Android phone."
If that wasn't clear enough, during a recent Q & A he also said:
"You know, there’s a porn store for Android. You can download nothing but porn. You can download porn, your kids can download porn. That’s a place we don’t want to go - so we’re not going to go there."
Wow - just how tall is that moral high horse, Steve?
Here's a crazy idea - how about letting users decide what they do and do not download to their phone? I know it goes against your company communist policy, but for some strange reason people actually like choice. Do you remember that word, Steve? Choice.
You know, when they broadcast adult shows on television it's my choice not to watch it if I don't want to. The fact that it's there isn't of concern to me. I'm not forced to watch. Likewise adult applications in the app store will only be downloaded by people who want them.
So what is the harm?
Do you find it funny, Steve, that once upon a time you accused Microsoft of being the evil monolithic dictators, but now you yourself are the most well known software dictator in recent memory.
So while you're busy playing the role of moral police, you might want to look into your own practices, because where I sit dictatorship and morals don't ever belong in the same sentence.
You dictate how developers produce and sell their own work, and then dictate what users can and can not have access too.
Get off your moral high horse and let the users decide for themselves. You know we're a pretty intelligent bunch of people, and I'm almost certain we could cope with sudden freedom of choice.
There's that word again, Steve. Defined as "the right, power, or opportunity to choose". Allowing choice will not turn your user base into sudden porn fiends. On that note, Android users who chose NOT to have porn apps aren't necessarily any more 'pure' than iPhone users. It's all about choice.
Sure there are loads of iPhone users who don't mind being governed, but one day they are going to get tired of it.
Android may be the 'moral decay' as you imply, but you know what? I'll take broken freedom over communist dictatorship any day of the week.
aries
Wednesday 21st April 2010 | 08:30 PMBrilliant article Mikey, I couldn't agree more!!!
Kelderek
Wednesday 21st April 2010 | 09:29 PMWhat is to prevent iPhone users from just browsing to porn websites? Blocking porn apps does NOT stop people from viewing porn on their iPhones, it just makes it less convenient.
Kim OJ
Wednesday 21st April 2010 | 09:44 PMOne might suggest that the Android user could be more "moral" than the iPhone user seeing as they choose not to download porn, while the iPhone user simply is denied the opportunity.
And of course the iPhone user supports the fascist Apple empire.
Trent Greguhn
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 02:33 AM...in response to this comment by Kim OJ. Android users are indeed more moral-- morality cannot be forced on you, therefore the iPhone community doesn't even have the choice to be moral.
I would love to be a part of the Nexus One and all its glory.
I just hate that the iPhone is getting so much support from developers, they have like ten times the apps of any android phone and that's depressing. Especially given that games like Final Fantasy and Sim City are iPhone exclusive.
Damn you Steve Jobs.
Papa
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 03:59 AMSooner or later iPhone and iMac users are going to begin their daily routine with a women dressed in a tight white outfit with an half eaten apple on it, telling them to touch their toes. I am not even sure if I get this joke...
Chronno S. Trigger
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 04:29 AMThe Android has a porno store? News to me. Never cared enough to look, but now that Steve endorsed (:P) it I'll have to check it out.
Why is porn amoral?
Trent Greguhn
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 04:40 AM...in response to this comment by Chronno S. Trigger. I don't think porn is amoral, and can only be moral or immoral within context. It is not exclusively one or the other.
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 11:21 AM
Mikey,
I just have to comment here.
"I'll take broken freedom over communist dictatorship any day of the week."
COMMENT: What is broken freedom?
"You dictate how developers produce and sell their own work, and then dictate what users can and can not have access too. Get off your moral high horse and let the users decide for themselves."
COMMENT: Can you say "Contradiction"? Why, if don't like dictators, would you then turn around and dictate what Steve Jobs should be doing with his own company products?
"I'm almost certain we could cope with sudden freedom of choice."
COMMENT: Oh, so you would rather take away Steve's right to choose to not allow that garbage on his apps just so YOU can have a choice? Can you say contradiction again?
If you think so highly of the makers of apps that allow porn downloading, then buy from them. Let's be honest, Jobs has the right to exercise his freedom in the way he sees fit--it is his company and his name after all.
He is NOT putting a gun to your heads and forcing you to buy his products or forcing you to not by an android that allows porn downloading. He's just saying, "Hey, we're not going there." Well, well, well! What do we have here?! A man?! Wow! I LIKE IT! Haha -- You go, Jobs!
(I think that if any of you really knew what goes on in porn and how a lot of these women, if they keep doing the things they're doing, will be in diapers by the time their in their 30's, you'd applaud Steve Jobs, because that could be your mother, or your sister, or your daughter or your best friend.)
My two cents.
______________________________
Please consult your physician before reading this reply. ;-)
Gina
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 11:23 AM...in response to this comment by . I wrote that. (This site always logs me out after a few minutes -- is there anything that I can do to keep that from happening?)
Papa
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 01:16 PM...in response to this comment by . "Jobs has the right to exercise his freedom in the way he sees fit"
Exactly, as long as it revokes the abilities of it's users to do what they seem fit. Suppression of information is exactly what we need in this world, so any one who steps forward to do so is a saint, right?
"Oh, so you would rather take away Steve's right to choose to not allow that garbage on his apps just so YOU can have a choice?"
I am still looking for that quote in Mike's original post where he said he wanted to restrict Steve's actions, but please enlighten me if I have missed it.
Its not about limited Steve, but that is exactly what he is doing to his users. We are simply criticizing his choice to do limit others. I have never found a reason to buy a Mac product, so I couldn't care less about what Steve does. But I sure as hell can criticize him for it. *smile*
Gina
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 02:17 PM...in response to this comment by Papa. Papa,
I just got finished going rounds with Henk. I'm not about to start up again with you. This will be my last comment to you. You said:
"Exactly, as long as it revokes the abilities of it's users to do what they seem fit. Suppression of information is exactly what we need in this world, so any one who steps forward to do so is a saint, right?"
You call porn "information":
Dictionary
information |ˌinfərˈmā sh ən|
noun
1 FACTS provided or learned about something or someone : a VITAL piece of information.
Porn is not a "factual" depiction of what takes place in bedrooms, and you know it. Most of them are being badly hurt in certain scenes. Next time you watch porn, try (try) and look into the woman's eyes. Are they glazed over? Well, she might be numbing herself with drugs and alcohol to the physical suffering from humiliation, degradation, not to mention addiction to alcohol and drugs (like heroin and meth) to get her through the scenes. Is it a fact that sex is like that and furthermore is always videotaped and recorded?
VITAL
vital |ˈvītl|
adjective
1 absolutely necessary or important; indispensable to the continuance of life
Yeah, right--porn's ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY and "IMPORTANT" and INDISPENSABLE to the continuance of life.
I won't bother answering the rest of your comments, because the (1) the answer is there, but you just were OFFENDED by it, and (2) hypocritical.
That's all I have to say to you.
...in response to this comment by . I think you missed something critical, as is Mr Jobs.
Firstly I'm not dictating, or saying Jobs' rights to decide either way should be taken away - I'm not sure where you got that from. I'm saying he made very wrong and unpopular decisions.
Giving people a choice, instead of dictating, won't affect the reputation of Apple. Every other platform in the world affords choice, even Windows, but you don't affiliate Microsoft with Porn, do you?
I think this really just boils down to Job's personal politics on the subject. And personal politics rarely if ever have a place in business decision making. I tell my clients this every day - that their personal preferences have nothing to do with how I build their web site - I'm building it to suit their users needs - not to suit their personal tastes.
And though I can tell you're passionate on the subject and there are some merits to the argument that it could be considered morally wrong, that isn't what I'm (we're) talking about. The subject is about the critical linchpin of any good software eco-system: Don't take away the users right to choose. There are no benefits to it - absolutely none.
One thing you are right about though: Nobody is forcing me to buy an iPhone, so it doesn't affect me directly. But human rights abuses in China don't affect me either - but we still have to say something when we know it's wrong.
Laiste
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 05:30 PMEr. I actually feel bad for agreeing with Mr Jobs on this. I don't think porn should be easily available. I'm quite glad that its not available on Apple products. Porn is different from most applications- its demeaning to women, dehumainsing and sets up unrealistic expectations. At the end of the day porn is more closley related to a kind of drug then it is to just a normal application. To anyone who has been involved with someone who has used porn on a daily basis it IS a kind of drug that requires harders and more hits to get the same effect. So, I personally count this as a score for Apple.
Henk V
Thursday 22nd April 2010 | 09:06 PMGina
Cut the moronic disinformation. You gave that woman very bad advice! The fact that you feel slighted and not admonished for possibly directing this person to a possible brain damage doesnt occur to you and you still feel its right to make such claims. Stop throwing in logical fallacies.
Instead Gina, as an author, throw up an open forum so people who are different to you can tell you how nice it feels when people say dumb things. I'll probably be the first to post.
Guys, Its his friggen product. If you dont like it, dont buy it.
If he sold three legged horses that won the Kentucky derby you'd probably bitch about the way he plaited his horses tails.
Porn affects the performers, the crews and the viewers. All are being used for some very short term gain. You want that on your phone, fine.
sheesh its bad enough sitting in a restaurant or bar listening to people having phone conversations. Maybe porn will keep them nice and quiet whilst they et their meals...
PS, the same people who post porn, post kiddie porn and sex tourism jpgs... Nice guys Rusty Limers
clarity
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 01:42 AM...in response to this comment by . apple is not isteve's company. googling a little suggests that apple (APPL) is ipublicly 'owned'. isteve is an apple employee (within the general sense of the word 'employee')
clarity
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 01:44 AM...in response to this comment by Henk V. freedom of expression allows people to not 'buy' something and to criticize/parody/etc that thing.
clarity
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 01:46 AM...in response to this comment by Laiste. i suspect most gay porn doesn't 'dehumanize' or 'demean' women.
like all fantasy (including saturday morning cartoons), porn tends to be bizarrely unrealistic.
clarity
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 01:50 AM...in response to this comment by . I'm sure there's plenty of (non'porn') garbage available for iphones. (garbage - there's an app 4 that)
clarity
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 01:53 AM...in response to this comment by Trent Greguhn. i think you're suggesting that enforcing 'morality' may be immoral :)
Henk V
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 07:48 AMNope, dont believe in the term morality either. Its an invention and all you're asking for is 4 page lecture on morals and subjectivity to start up again. Lets face it, anyone who can have a fixed attention span whilst watching porn probably is trying to reminisce or maybe thinking that that is what sex is all about.
On the flip side, If porn is so precious to you all so as to continually call for its remaining on the net, why is it free and accessible? Why not lock up sites with pay per view? I am sure a lot less people regularly view porn than most think.
Companies make products and make claims about their products. If Apple has Jobs making these claims then its an organisational claim.
Possibly a market ploy, who knows. It sure circumvents a lot of problems for windows tho, an other apple platform where you cant possibly find a feature.
Ive never used an apple product to do real things. I view them to be toys for the surfer and people doing office work.
Maybe they can be used for control, data collection etc etc. But I never found the facility to use them as such, its a bit late now (for me) if they are useful.
Phone based entertainment centres just seem a little bit odd. But then I am way outside any gamer generation as well.
Gina
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 10:49 AM...in response to this comment by Mikey. Thanks for your reply, Mikey.
I am very passionate about it. Probably more passionate about that that you are about your wish to have the choice be there. Here's why:
You think that there are no human rights abuses when it comes to porn? But don't you know that people, men especially, get heavily addicted to it? These aren't always people out searching or looking for it; they get it in their spam or flipping through channels on their TV many times. They didn't set out to become addicted to it. It was not their choice to see it in the first place. The addiction then destroys marriages and relationships and whole lives! And that is to say nothing about it being horrible for those playing and acting the parts: that goes for the men as well as the women.
When a person supports the "freedom" to choose to be able to download porn, you're opening up a HUGE can of worms. We're not just talking about some porn, or this porn, or safe porn, we're talking about child porn and bondage porn and rape porn and gang banging porn and ATM (ass to mouth) porn and all kinds of pure JUNK! And, are you certain that everyone involved in the porn are willing partakers? Are you sure about that, Mikey? Well are you? Because I can assure you they are not.
And so you are in fact SUPPORTING a form of the very thing you are against - DICTATORSHIP.
Don't you know that most of those actors have been lied to about what they're getting into, and now they're trapped?
Girls are told by their agents that they're going to a shoot involving one guy for a tame sex scene only to discover when they get on the set that it involves a scene they'd really rather not do, let's just put it that way and when they back out, their agent tells them that if they don't do it they'll send out cease and desist orders to others agencies so that they can't get any more work! So, the actresses or actors then are COMPELLED [forced!] to go through with the scenes because they have to eat (or pay for their addiction to whatever they're addicted to).
And that, my friend, is on par with the very thing you detest.
And then you say well, I don't tell my clients how to build their websites. That's really sweet, but we're talking about an iPhone here. But since you brought it up, and you're so for people's right to choose porn, how come you're against it when it comes to RustyLime (NOT that I'm criticising you for your decision when it comes to your site), but why criticize and say that Jobs has to come down off his high horse when you are in effect doing the very same thing with your registrants upon registration ?
" a) You will not post comments that are considered racial slurs or offensive in a similar manner, or derogatory to minorities. Furthermore you understand that a moderator may delete - without notice - any comment that violates this clause.
b) You WILL NOT CHOOSE a screen or use an avatar name that might be considered offensive or PORNOGRAPHIC in nature.
c) You will keep your comments consistent with the topic of the article (no topic hijacking).
d) You will not be creating an account solely for the purpose of spamming the comment threads.
e) You understand, as part of our effort to combat spam and block offensive and spam accounts, that your IP address is logged and stored with each comment.
f) You acknowledge that in the event that you choose to close your account, any comments you made on Rusty Lime will remain visible. This is necessary as to not interrupt the flow of comment threads."
What's up with that, Mikey?
Anyway, you know I adore you and you know why, Mikey? Because you're a lot like Steve Jobs in that regard.
YOU D' MAN and I like it! :-)
Love ya!
Gotta run, my friend...........................
Henk V
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 11:39 AMsomeone gets lucky everyday in this world...
It's not the porn that I mind so much. It would be ok if there wasn't so much of it freely available.
I assume from the cries here that by reducing access to porn is a slight on humans and their day to day activity.
Man, I don't know about you guys but I really don't want to be distracted and I certainly don't demand porn for my internet access. The guy down stairs used to get popups and viruses all the time. My son used to go down and help him clean up. One day I checked his history and found out why.
If you really want to sit in public and watch porn, or show your sex phone around the office male staff, you have a bit of a problem.
Trent Greguhn
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 11:50 AMI think the point here is being missed. Steve Jobs is distracting the point of this message by bringing up porn. It's a disingenuous and illogical argument anyway-- "You know, theres a porn store for Android. You can download nothing but porn. You can download porn, your kids can download porn."
He's purposefully choosing his diction to illustrate that android phones are nothing but porn devices. Seriously, read between the lines. You can say the same thing about the internet. "Yeah, the internet... you can download porn... we don't want that, so you can only visit the websites we want you to," or how about DVD's? "Yeah, you can watch porn on DVD's, did you know that? Yeah, we won't go there-- you can only watch what we want you to okay?"
Supporting an android phone is NOT supporting porn anymore than using the internet is supporting porn, it's supporting freedom of choice not only for the user, but for the developers. Gina, Laiste, would you pay for internet where they only let you go to websites they approved of? Or rent from a video store that only rented out things they approved of? Of COURSE not. You have different tastes. No one here is going to download porn apps for our phones, that's ridiculous. But we would like a little more freedom of expression and not have someone dictating what we can, and cannot be a part of.
Kim OJ
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 12:06 PMSome people are just more comfortable handing over their freedom than managing it them selves, Apple provides that option in the market. That's fine, but I would not touch it with a ten foot pole.
Chronno S. Trigger
Friday 23rd April 2010 | 10:22 PM@Gina: you are absolutely, completely, and totally wrong.
Let's start with the addiction thing, completely fake. One cannot become addicted to porn. The obsessions you are thinking about stem from overbearing parents or spouses that try to restrict things like this and are rare.
Having the freedom to choose to download porn douse not instantly lead to having the freedom to remove others freedoms. You're making a correlation where there is none. Having more porn does not lead to more child porn, it does not lead to more rape (it actually leads to less).
I don't believe that most porn stars get trapped. That may have been true many years ago (not as much as you would think) when porn was still a scarlet letter kind of thing, but it isn't any more. Why is it so hard to believe that people can just choose that life?
As for limiting what is on the RustyLime site, It's his website and his hardware running the site. He can choose what is on it. I do not like it when someone else gets to decide what's on my hardware that I control and use.
Steve Jobs is perfectly free to choose what can and cannot be on his servers and on his hardware. He's not the government and is not limited by the first amendment. He cannot limit my freedom to choose what's on my hardware, what's on my servers, and what I choose to use (this is why I don't use Apple products). And nether can you, Gina, no matter how much you want to.
Henk V
Saturday 24th April 2010 | 07:17 AMin the words of the immortal DEVO!
"Freedom of choice is what you got! Freedom from choice is what you want!"
I think that sort of kills the thread
Papa
Saturday 24th April 2010 | 08:34 AM...in response to this comment by Gina. You actually didn't provide any comment about the subject. Your whole post was about Porn, not about Steve Jobs, or Apple or even the fact that are supressing it.
Seems like you hate ponography, which is a fine stance to take. But Jobs better limit bomb making sites, drug sites, animal torture sites, and anything else that could be deemed "immoral". Why play favorites?
Henk V
Saturday 24th April 2010 | 12:16 PMYou're almost right Papa.
I did mention Stece Jobs earler and said if its his or apple, as he representing a corporation, sells a new product without porn accessibility, Its their choice (note the three legged horse example).
Its not that you can hate pornography, its just appropriate that its totally users pays. This is fairly consistent with the way the internet can freely disseminate information. You cant argue that if you don't have access to journal literature, you have to do a course at a university and hook up through the uni servers. Porn should be the same.
As to the other abominations on the net, these too should have some restriction (were it only so, the authorities could weed out psychopaths very quickly).
My daughter is a bit of a feminist already and her stance has come from my influence that feminism has benefited us bone headed males for the better part. Her points of view are radically different to mine at times and I can learn from her over the past 2 years as I do off my son over the past 5. My son is of the point of view that porn is embarrassing to us as a species. My daughter sees the fact that the excuses don't add up.
I think I have also stated elsewhere, that testimonial; where women, men, donkeys and canaries freely engage in sexual acts as some sort of exhibitionism on their behalf does not in anyway justify, why these displays viewed by a titillated audience, should ever exist.
I would vehemently agree that the identical statements holds for your other examples.
I really don't understand how and why anyone stupid enough not to work out how to make a bomb, projectile weapon, have an animals life in misery, extract or make drugs or fuck with loud noises should be shown how to by other morons via general access. That includes distillation process sites.
It's really not that hard to work out how to make another denizens life a misery.
If a moron can't do it, why show him?
"Marge, I am home! Oh Homey, I made a bomb with a 50 minute chemical fuse. Lets get it on in the garage and see who makes the biggest bang.. Marge! you bought an IPOD?"
I always get Mr Burns and Major Burns mixed up.....
Gina
Saturday 24th April 2010 | 01:52 PM...in response to this comment by Papa. Because they're trying to track down terrorists? I don't know, Papa. I'm tired. It's almost 11:00 p.m., and I have to get up early tomorrow for the book fare. Did you know Carl Reiner and Carol Burnett are going to be there along with Buzz Aldrin (a client of one of my former boss)? Cool beans! Anyway, it's gonna be a 2-hour drive at least and I need my sleep-- lest I "saw logs" in the middle of a reading/discussion. How embarrassing would that be?
Goodnight
Henk V
Saturday 24th April 2010 | 04:10 PMDid you just infer Buzz Aldrin goes to a psyke?
Gina
Sunday 25th April 2010 | 12:58 PM...in response to this comment by Chronno S. Trigger.
Dear CST,
I'm going to give you a bit of unsolicited advice. Ya ready? Here goes:
You need to be very careful with what you say because you never know when you're going to have to eat your own words.
I dare you to watch this video. I dare you.
Rodney
Wednesday 21st April 2010 | 08:28 PM"I'll take broken freedom over communist dictatorship any day of the week."
Nicely put. I have an Android phone and, although this may be difficult to believe, the thought of watching porn on it never occurred to me. I mean, for one thing, the screen is tiny!
It's a phone, for goodness sakes, I use it to do normal phone things... like plot directions where I am going or browse the web or RDP to servers or figure out which star I am looking at or play Monkey Island 2... Ok maybe I don't use it like a normal phone, after all. But the point is... actually I forget my point. I think it was something about it being my phone and I'd rather do with it what I please, than what Mr Jobs thinks I should.